That's the title of Michael Joseph Gross' latest feature article for Out magazine. As most of you will recall, Mr. Gross authored the earlier "The Case of the Cobra Killer" Out feature on the Kocis killing as well.An underlying theme to Gross' Kocis article was that while the evidence against Harlow and Joe was overwhelming, he felt there was still something lacking from the "gay porn turf war" motive. Expressing no doubt about Harlow and Joe's guilt, he theorized that the missing motive mojo was "radical dissociation" brought on by the current gay cultural trend of online hookups, and the ability to thus create new internet personas willy-nilly:
"Bryan Kocis, Sean Lockhart, Harlow Cuadra, and Joseph Kerekes reinvented themselves online. Military patriotism or fundamentalist faith helped accustom some of them to double lives. But these four were caught up in a mode of reinvention disconnected from the one that in literature and life has united American characters as disparate as Abraham Lincoln, Arnold Schwarzenegger, Horatio Alger, Jay Gatsby, and Tom Ripley.I'll admit my own openness to the theory, having personally catalogued Joe Kerekes' extreme online derangement prior to his arrest.
Those men all left home to start anew. These men just logged on. They created alternate identities in parallel worlds, as most of us do now, imagining that we need not give up anything to do so, believing that our games exact no unrecoverable cost. The difference between us and the characters in the case of the Cobra killer is one of scale, not of kind. Unreal realities, endless flickering between truth and fiction, an addictive stream of possible connections among possible selves, converging in the dead end of a life."
In the new Out article, Gross picks up that theme again in a big way, with a major expose on the very popular Manhunt online hookup site. Subtitled "A cost-benefit analysis of our quest to get laid," as you can imagine from Gross' previous article...the costs are generally portrayed as pretty weighty, and the benefits miniscule or illusiory.
This new article has already created quite a stir out there, raising eyebrows already on blogs quite a bit bigger than this one.
Now, Gross did not specifically list "increased propensity to drive to another state and murder someone" as one of the costs in this new cost-benefit analysis, so, this new article is not Kocis-related per se. Still, it is interesting, and does touch upon his earlier theme about the impact of online fantasy as being an additional piece to the motive puzzle.
So...Manhunt: Good or evil? Discuss.
Update: Well here's an interesting twist on the story!
Update 2: Update to the update. As before, the Towleroad comments are on fire!
Update 3: And now, Crutchly resigns from Manhunt board.
23 comments:
This is a very interesting topic jim,
thank you!
I have heard about this "online hooking up"
I have never done it.
I am not saying anything against it just have never done it.
I went for a checkup recently at the Dr.- he is on South Beach and I never really get there anymore.
Conversation got around to him telling me about online hookups and crystal meth [I guess that combo is big, too!] and how that is what is going on these days and that it is huge. If you wanted to party and play it is available NOW.
I am from a different time,
people met in clubs,
or through friends.
There has to be a bit of romance:)
That is probably why I like to work all the time as I don't go out to clubs and don't meet guys online to have casual sex with.
[basically do not meet guys period lately- not feeling sorry for myself just a fact :))
This "manhunt" stuff, again I do not know anything about.
For me, it is better that way!
Another part of the post that struck me is about the social isolation the computer can bring.
I can see that being true.
I do that!
Jim good choice for a post and yes we can certainly see Michael Gross was mulling over the subject last year! (It was the a theme in his question to the principles in his Kocisphere article)
Do I agree with him?
Not a chance!
The entire article exudes the Christo-Fascist propaganda Michael was indoctrinated with as a youth (so was the Catholic Sullivan)
Michael was the boy who grew up worshiping Ronald Reagan and Hollywood celebrities while living the life off a closeted mid 80's youth. What is the first bit of propaganda he learned?
Sex is bad
Gay Sex is REALLY BAD!
it permeates this article along with this pining for the romantic love that the Hetero world worships!
In our personal lives, even now, almost 40 years after Stonewall, coming out requires a painful exertion of energy to rout the puritan fear that gay sex is bad. To vanquish this fear, especially when first coming out, many of us become preoccupied with the pursuit of sex.
See by repeating the charge and dismissing it Michael assures us in the rest of the article he does in fact view Gay Sex as bad just as he was indoctrinated as a youth!
The fundamentalist canard about loving the sinner but hating the sin draws a nonsensical distinction between person and act.
Cruising online, by encouraging us to separate sex from the rest of our lives, does exactly the same thing. These are falsehoods about human nature and about the place of love in our lives, and they undermine the belief that sex can be anything more than a pastime.
Again he dismisses the fundy credo in the first paragraph then embraces it in the second!
Michael your rote recitation of Fundy theology comes thru loud and clear!
As a normative way of socializing for gay men, online cruising is a disaster. We need to recognize its effects -- including its tendency to isolate us, encourage objectification, and diminish our sense of life’s nonsexual possibilities -- as disasters. We need to recognize that too many of us, too much of the time, are cruising online because it is easier and feels safer than thinking about the love we are missing and the power we do not have. Too many of us, too much of the time, are cruising online because it’s easier and feels safer than mustering the courage, patience, discipline, and imagination required to help ourselves and each other become the men that, in our strongest moments, we want to be.
Bullshit!
BULLSHIT!
Gross is spewing the same shit about online cruising I heard in the 80's about the gay bars he moons over!
Its all pseudo religious SHIT!
We are men and young men having rutting animal sex and mindless sexual hookups is a rite of passage!
I spent 5 years in my prime early twenties celibate and re focused on the church because of this mindset! (sex is EVIL)
A complete and UTTER WASTE!
Now that he is in his forties and "regrets his wanton youth" MG and Sulliavn want to indoctrinate a new generation in their old failed ideology!
By embracing Puritan Thought?
Drive a STAKE thru it Michael Recognize the Evil, KILL it before it destroys you! ;)
Too Late...
Gary Cohan, a physician who treats half of A-list gay Hollywood, says we have to start thinking in a deliberate way about what normal social interaction consists of. “For a long time,” Cohan says, “it has been considered normal to be on the Net. We need to start thinking, That’s not normal.”
Who says?
The same arguments were made about phone culture a 100 years ago!
Why do women spend hours on the phone talking to "unseen callers" when they could be "socializing" in person!
Same Claptrap!
Online is bad
Real world is good
Get a grip Michael if your feeling alienated from gay society the Fault is YOURS not mine!
I have never heard of Manhunt but obviously it is important to Michael Gross. He wrote about it. What he wrote made very little sense to me. My bullshit alarm kept going off.
To bolster his argument with an expert source, he quotes, Perry Halkitis, a professor of applied psychology who said, “Manhunt is a symptom. It does well because we don’t know how to relate to each other and we don’t know how to take care of ourselves.” BULLSHIT ALARM!
That is the voice of tenured professor in a ‘liberal’ (read ‘socialist’) academic environment. It is the premise of that environment that we are all helpless victims of our environment, unable to do anything for ourselves and unable to communicate our needs. That is just liberal spin with no basis in reality. In my mid fifties now, having raised four sons to adulthood and remained friends with all of them and my parents and siblings. I think I know very well how to take care of myself and relate to others.
This argument is repeated frequently. You can take that quote and replace the noun with nearly any other noun and it makes as much sense.
“MySpace is a symptom. It does well because we don’t know how…...”
“Television is a symptom. It does well because we don’t know how…….”
“The telephone is a symptom. It does well because we don’t know how…….”
Michael continues to bolster his position as a victim by blaming somebody else for his own lack of evolutionary development. He says, “When we started cruising online, neither I nor any of my friends would have dreamed we’d post naked pictures of ourselves for strangers to see. Now almost all of us have done it. When we crossed that line most of us felt we were violating ourselves.”
Hey, Michael, if you were violating yourself, blame yourself. Be an adult and take responsibility for your on decisions. Your bullshit about being influenced by “powerful incentives,” is just that. Bullshit.
Most of the commentators including one ‘BB,’ who sounded much like our bb had good comments. I just tend to disagree with them as well. MySpace or Manhunt are not evil. They are communication tools, like e-mail, the telephone, telegraph, shortwave radio, first class mail or a bulletin board at work.
I met my partner on-line but not in a place either of us expected. We were not looking for a hookup. We were just making comments on a blog, saying the same things and most amazingly at about the same time, even though that time varied a lot. It was amazing. We had to make contact. I reached out and with the help of someone in Brent Corrigan’s house, contact was made. You see, DeWayne and I met through Brent’s old blog. We are just a few weeks short of two years since we first gloriously and physically met.
From Texas, Albert
I calld DeWayne after I saw our comments posted. It happened again. We came to the same conclusion, albeit from different angles and posted those views at the same time. This is the kind of wierd shit that has been going on for years now.
Before our conversation about 10 minutes ago, we have not talked since Thursday evening, nor had any other communication. It is just amazing.
Haven't read the article yet, so can't comment on that, but your post has reminded me that OUT has lots of interesting stuff online that I should catch up on, and that your blog, Jim, has a vast archive that I need to catch up on as well.
Thanks a lot! More hours spent isolated in front of the computer! You know, as V.J. mentioned, I think THAT, rather than the evils of Manhunt or online hookups, is probably the real underlying problem, and it cuts across sexual orientations and puritanical/liberated ideologies. The internet is a wonderful thing, of course, but as with anything else that is so seductive and readily available, it can be abused to an unhealthy extent.
ADDICTION is the problem!
will,
I agree with everything that you said!
Also after reading Dewayne and Albert, I realize I am a bit old fashioned when it comes to sex.
I am sure that I will not change in this lifetime and that is o.k.:)
Regarding Manhunt and the post.
If guys are choosing to "hook up this way" these days, that is their business IMO.
I have heard that a lot of these "hookups" are drug induced and because of that [meth] unsafe sex is happening and as a result people contracting HIV are way on the rise and the guys are so young. That is from my Doctor and it is very sad.
I can see this happening, so that part of the "manhunt" issue I am against.
I suppose some people would say that people would just use their drugs and go to clubs and do the same thing, but it is prevelant with the online hookups.
V.J., the "party and play" subculture of internet hookups is indeed is alarming. I don't go to those sites myself, but have heard that the code "PNP" is very prevalent on them. It's also interesting in that it seems to be one addiction -- the internet -- feeding another -- drugs. That makes for a really dangerous combination, a double addiction that must be nearly impossible to kick.
I remember when the internet was a newer phenomenon there used to be all kinds of news reports about the dangers of internet addiction, particularly involving porn, and you just don't hear so much about it any more. I think people just kind of brush the problem aside now, which is sad in itself.
I just looked over the site. Tons of profiles of guys looking for clean Neg no drugs fun. The Out article will do wonders for new memberships over at Manhunt no doubt.
But one really is better off going to a popular gym in the city, get in shape. And keep your eyes open while taking a hot shower after that workout. You'll know soon enough what's up and what kind of action is around.
Or check out one of the "spas" for secure fun and safe action.
The online game must be depressing after a while. But I gotta admit that the bar scene is a really tired outdated way to blow your money and meet up with boozers, druggy hiv+ one night stands. That is a proven fact. So new ways to meet besides all that drinking is a much needed thing. Even Starbucks is a better alternative to those scummy bars.
Kinda raises a chicken-and-egg conundrum there: Did the scummy bar scene lead to the rise of the online scene? Or did the rise of the online scene lead to the bar scene getting all scummy?
Quickysryt said,
"new ways to meet without all that drinking is a much needed thing"
I totally agree with you, there is nothing meaningful going on in the bar scene.
Outdated- absolutely!
When I mentioned the Manhunt situation, I was going on what I had heard from others.
One thing that I really did not acknowledge until reading your comment - [big time A.D.D.- me!]
The people that I spoke with said it is strictly a hook-up situation.
Given that this area S. Fla- is a party town the drug situation is more prevelant - probably.
If someone is not looking to just have sex with someone but is interested in possibly more or at least getting to know somebody.
Myspace works for that.
Again the bar scene- that IMO is bad news-
The "let's hook up now and just for sex"
not for everybody-
Personally I have had several nice dates with guys through Myspace.
p.s. I don't know if I have ever told you I like your armpit :)
Drug addiction; drinking addiction; on-line addiction; video games addiction; and a favorite label of all I am sure, sex addiction.
Alcoholism is a disease and treatable. There may be an underlying chemical imbalance emotional problem that triggers drug abuse so those two are two addictions, I do not and will not treat lightly.
The other "addictions" are terms of pop culture. Obsessions perhaps, but not addictions. I fail to see some man or some woman with a higher sex drive than most of us as being addicted.
I am not in favor of hook-ups from bars. As Quicky-sort states, those hook-ups tend to be one night stands and with persons most of us would never consider meeting again.
Now, Gross has a proposition in his recent article concerning the anonymity of the internet, making the potential for meetings between otherwise unlikely meetings to become likely more possible. Doesn't surprise me because writing is always more deliberate and thought out than face to face conversation which is supplemented by eye contact, vocal inflection, and body language as subconcious gauges of another's personality.
I tend to find myself agreeing with Albert a bit more. An online dating service is but a communication's tool. Because it is a utility, nothing overcomes good old human common sense in discerning a situation or issue. Judgment and prudence do have to be exercised.
Just for the fun of trying a different approach, let me assure Michael that Manhunt has had absolutely no impact on gay culture, good or bad that I am aware of. Of course I was not aware of this online service he was heretofore apparently very fond of, until he made such a point of advertising it.
An intellectual approach might include first defining ones terms. For an example one might define "Gay Culture." It would be an intelligent start. We did not get that. I also missed the cost benefit analysis which would usually involve some numbers. "What did I miss?" I ask myself rhetorically.
I may spend a few dollars to see my partner once a year. They are mine to spend. I take responsibility for that. For me, the 'CBA' works.
Maybe MG will have better luck with his next "Gay Culture" hook-up methods,...and definitions.
Albert's comments took on a new light for me after having actually read the article. Michael Gross says he "wasted" 12 years cruising online. Two interesting things: He doesn't actually say he's STOPPED doing it, although he implies it's in his past. And 12 years would make him something of an early adapter to that way of cruising, which means he's somehow more tempermentally suited to it than going to bars, etc.
He also says he was hesitant to do this article, given his history. All those things do show a certain amount of shame, both in being a gay man and in his proclivities, and that I think is where much of the judgmental, "sky is falling" tone of the article is coming from. I don't mean this to sound judgmental about HIM, it's just my impression.
In his defense, though, I don't think he ever really points the finger at Manhunt, or online cruising itself, as being a bad influence on gay culture, I think he points the finger more at people like himself who don't integrate it into their lives properly.
Just a small correction: I should have said Albert's and DeWayne's comments took on a new light. They do seem to be on the same psychic wavelength! Albert's comment was just the last one I read.
I was unaware of Manhunt before reading this post. I created a free limited account and checked out some of the 34 pages of profiles in my city. It looks a lot cleaner and safer than craigslist, but you have to pay as much for access as you do for dsl lite. If the objective is to meet people, why wouldn't you just find a congenial bar and nurse a ginger ale or find some place to volunteer? If your purpose is a quick bj, why not put up a filthy craigslist come-on for free?
I agree Geoff what is the diff between Manhunt and Craigslist?
Manhunt will provide a pickup that has a credit card.
What I am really waiting for is the natural evolution of Manhunt.
Where is that DAMN transporter!
Logans Run (1975)depicted future hookups no farther away than a quick online perusal and zap into your pad for the evening...
So some enterprising Techie needs to get cracking its the 21st century where is this wondrous new invention?
Shallow that such a world changing invention like Teleportation would be reduced to
use as a hookup device?
Well the World Wide Web is the greatest invention and cultural driver of the last 50 years and all for what?
So everyone can post naked pix of themselves online?
Of course the same thing was said about the Automobile and by the 1950's teenagers were using this 2 ton heap of Steel and chrome for what?
Sex in a car ;)
Thanks for the Update Jim Towelroad has been on fire since they posted about Jonathon Crutchlys check to McCain.
What a Hypocrite Crutchly is for writing the check and what a bigger one McCain is for accepting a check from the founder of Manhunt.
Manhunt represents EVERYTHING the Christo-Fascists in control of the GOP LOATH. Like open Homosexuality (everyone should be in the closet all the better to molest the boys in there with you)
Why would McCain take a check from Crutchly?
He certainly cannot approve of Manhunt!
I love Stevens summing up...
"I must say...it's been an interesting day in the gay blogosphere. Jonathan Crutchley's donation data has been available for awhile but it seems to have hit big today. The comments sections are blazing. I've seen many varied opinions -- some well thought out points of view and some alarming defenses. There is also a compelling side effect happening too...a realization. Guess what guys -- these companies aren't your friend. Gay male "habits" (good, bad, or otherwise) are indeed just a commodity.
Sure companies like Manhunt, Gay.com et al pass themselves off like some type of social network/hook-up playground. After all, look at the pretty links (ads), profiles, and shirtless men (albeit often headless). But really...they are trading in smut and questionable behavior. You're just a schmuck with a buck -- and when that front page beefcake gets shoved in your face you give it up like a slot machine. You're certainly getting screwed but not how you intended.
I applaud those cancelling their subscriptions. Not because I necessarily want to stick it to Manhunt. But because maybe it is time to zip up your pants and go outside for some air. There might be some nice fellow out there worth talking to. Stats be damned."
From Crutchley's comment:
"If we have an experienced, seasoned person defending the country in this dangerous age, we will be able to argue about the gay agenda later."
THE GAY AGENDA? Sound familiar? Sorry, but that Freudian slip speaks volumes. I have never heard anyone but anti-gay bigots use that phrase. And then this:
"But don't call me a 'liberal.' That's an insult."
Can you say "backlash"? Sell your shares in Manhunt.
There are just two choices at this point for the chief executive position. Hussein Obama who believes in black liberation theology. I was not aware that John McCain iss a Christo-Fascist but let's say for argument he is. Fascism is also Socialism and therefore also liberal. You have a choice between two liberals. One for Christians and one for Blacks, (I'm only following the prevailing argument here. Not agreeing with it.) So you choose to support Christians or blacks. One is a well established theology. The other is a skin color. The choice comes down to appearance over thought. I go with thought.
Albert, are you making one of those inscrutable sarcastic comments again? I don't want to start a political throwdown here, but reducing Obama to his skin color does not make for a very convincing argument IMO.
Anyway, I just posted this on Fleshbot:
"How appropriate that Mr. Crutchley is one of the founders of Manhunt, since he appears to be a dick and an asshole."
will,
Regarding your Fleshbot comment.
That about sums Crutchley up in a sentence!
Good for you!!
I deny that there is a gay culture separate from American culture. Many gay Americans have distinct tastes and interests, but we are all part of the broader culture, and the broader culture absorbs the tastes and interests of gay Americans.
geoff harvard,
Very well put.
I could not agree with you more,
wish sometimes that I was able to put into words feelings like those-
which I too have! :)
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